An exclusive interview with Kazuto Yamaki, CEO, Sigma

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I recently had the opportunity to spend some time with Sigma global CEO Kazuto Yamaki during his visit to Kuala Lumpur for the dp0 Quattro launch, courtesy of regional distributors APD. What followed was a most interesting and candid discussion during which it became clear to me that he has a very adroit handle on things and a remarkable philosophy. I believe Sigma is going to be one of the companies that not just survives the market slowdown, but may well come out benefitting from it. Here’s why.

Sigma was founded in the early 1960s by Yamaki-san’s father; the company made accessibly-priced lenses and OEM products for other companies – and still do, at least until fairly recently. (I remember being not particularly excited about the myriad 18-several hundred zooms I had to review during my editorial days, but these continue to represent major volume for the company – and an easy sell to an audience for whom more is better.) Sigma is a family-owned business, and maintains the tradition of lifetime employment. The turning point was an economic one: the extremely strong yen of the 1990s and obligation to maintain domestic employment levels meant that producing high-volume low-price lenses domestically would not be sustainable. Moving production offshore was never an option, which meant the sole strategy available would be to go up the value chain. Sigma would now produce differentiated products at a price and performance level accessible to enthusiasts.

The upshot of this change is what we started to see with the early Foveon cameras, followed by what I’d think of as their first interesting lenses: the f2.8 zooms that were performance-competitive or better to the N and C equivalents; the affordable 30/1.4 DC 50mm-equivalent from the APS-C days that til today has no equivalent in Canon or Nikon lineups. What we see today in the form of the Art lenses, Merrills, Quattros and exotic glass – think 200-500/2.8 – are the fruits of that philosophy.

What I found particularly interesting is that unlike N, C and S – a lot of things are done differently at Sigma, leading to a fairly unique corporate culture. And it’s this atmosphere that becomes conducive to creativity. Yamaki-san works long hours, rising at 4.50 am and being the first one into the office – which he doesn’t strictly have, preferring a desk shared with the rest of his engineering team. The atmosphere is open, collegial and much more conducive to discussion than the more common strict Japanese hierachy. I have no clue who heads Nikon or Canon imaging, much less how to have a conversation with them. This is of course good and bad: Yamaki-san jokes that on the days he doesn’t bring a home-prepared lunch to work, his staff assume something is amiss with domestic matters.

I get the impression that his staff and partners overseas love him, and rightly so: this is a man whose firm has managed to attract top engineering talent away from the big boys because they are passionate enthusiasts who want to work on lenses – if they join N or C, for instance, they may spend their entire careers without that opportunity. I also get the feeling that he sometimes throws them into the deep end: product design starts with “a very precise concept” but little in the way of specification; that way, the final solution is down to the creativity of the engineers, with adaptations eventually made for budget and production. It goes a long way towards explaining why each generation of product seems so different – the concept may not change that much, but the technology available does. And it’s refreshing to see that innovation is the underlying driver of product development, not the need to ‘release a new product every six months’ or make sure the spec sheet of the successor has a number one greater than its predecessor.

Yamaki-san has probably heard enough of the most common questions asked on the internet, so I will only report in brief what was said and point out that ultimately, a lot of choices are about balancing engineering/design and economic decisions. Many solutions for the Quattro were tried; the best one was a thin but large-area body to dissipate the heat from the processors. At the same time, it was made long and thin to encourage stability: you have to use two hands to hold the camera with most of the weight support by your left underneath the lens barrel. I don’t believe the right side grip was made deliberately uncomfortable to encourage you to take your weight off it, though. The magnifying hood was not so much an afterthought as an admission that the camera should have had an EVF, but by that point it was too late in the design process – I have a sneaky feeling that we will see one in the Quattro’s successor. I raised the obvious question about Adobe: it isn’t Sigma that’s the problem, but some resistance from Adobe. It appears the ACR engine is optimised for Bayer conversions, making anything else require a serious software rewrite. The only way this is likely to happen is if Adobe sees a large enough user base – chicken and egg, given the weakest point of the package now is SPP. Even then, Yamaki-san has increased the number of engineers devoted to software to attempt to close this gap faster.

The Quattro doesn’t have an electronic shutter because of the readout speed required for the different sensor layers; it would be very difficult to do, so is unlikely to see a future release barring dramatic changes to sensor technology. But it’s not impossible: remember the sharp concept idea. Each generation of the Foveon cameras has been designed from scratch, including the sensor. It is both an admission that the cameras are a continuing evolution and something that suggests we are far from seeing the full potential of the concept yet: I suspect that economics once again play a big role the equation, seeing as these cameras are a particularly niche product and development costs are stratospheric.

Why keep a (presumably) marginally profitable, or even unprofitable line going into what is now its fourth incarnation (with a fifth presumably already in the works)? For the same reason they keep making the 10-20 200-500/2.8s they sell every year: to keep the culture, and hit the company’s vision to be the most innovative photographic company out there. There are still fundamental laws of optics and physics that aren’t easily circumventable, of course – a fast FF lens or lens of a certain resolving power is still going to be a certain size regardless of flange distance. Though they are looking into Sony FF lenses, there may be compromises made for size/resolving power/cost reasons – similar to the f2.8 M4/3 and APSC lenses they have made previously.

Innovation comes with one big challenge: if you are dealing with a completely new product that has no existing competitors, you have to make your own market. Yamaki-san admits that the Foveon cameras are definitely a niche product, but also doesn’t really know how big the ultimate market for those cameras is: I could see it being huge if the underlying sensor technology could be made to work in a transparent way that doesn’t require a lot of ancillary support in processing etc.

The first wave of adopters and opinion-influencers are the technologically savvy; they are more likely to live with first-generation quirks, but at the same time there is no excuse for lack of follow up support or other compromises (ahem, Sony). Yamaki-san goes out of his way to be accessible and to listen to user feedback – he is perhaps one of the most, if not the most accessible camera company CEO on the planet. In the long term, success in this business is down to both a solid product and a relationship with the user base: it makes it easier to both explain unconventional products as well as figure out future demand.

Later that evening, at a Sigma user dinner, he posed the question of ‘what would you like to see next?’ An 85/1.4 Art was top of the list, and I had to suggest a full frame Foveon mirrorless body designed for ultimate image quality and nothing else – he replied that the SD1M isn’t going to be the last interchangeable lens camera, and the project was still very much alive. What was far more encouraging was that he landed up having to pause people so he could make notes on specific suggestions to firmware, operability, etc.; he was looking for criticisms, not complements. Some wag joked he should read my previous reviews. Yamaki-san is definitely a social media savvy chap, though: one of the first things he said to me was he noticed I tagged him on Twitter that morning; I’m also very happy to report that he is very clear about the difference between a ‘blogger review’ and one from an actual photographer.

I have to also say that I do not own any Sigma products at the moment; I’ve used several generations of the Foveon all the way back to the original DP1, but found the workflow and shooting envelope too limiting for the way I shoot. They are cameras I really want to like – and all the more so after meeting the man behind them – but I still can’t quite figure out where they fit. More kudos are due to Yamaki-san and the APD guys simply for being so open and accommodating with me when they know I’m not even a user (Yamaki-san even invited me to visit the factory in Aizu). This is the kind of professionalism that the big brands need to take notice of if they want to ever grow their user base.

The biggest thing I came away with from the time spent with Yamaki-san was that above all, Sigma is a company run with both passion and focus. It is probably one of the few in the industry that has very much the right talent mix at the helm – engineering with creativity and above that, an enthusiasm for photography. It is a breath of fresh air in an industry that has really felt as though much of it is trying to see how much it can get away with of late with an increasingly half-baked string of products. I really want to support them for both integrity of conviction as well as a genuinely good product – without companies like this to keep the big boys in line, it would be very much our loss. MT

Lastly, on behalf of my readers – a huge thank you to Yamaki-san for his time, and Dr. Ng and Ng Wei Lee of regional distributors APD for arranging the interview. In addition, Yamaki-san has very generously indicated that he will do his best to reply any enquiries to both his twitter feed (@KazutoYamaki) and comments here, so if you have any questions: now’s the time to ask. 🙂

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Comments

  1. Hello Mr Kazuto Yamaki!…..I am from photographer from India. Firstly I would extend my best wishes to Sigma for creating such great lenses of late (Contemporary, Art and Sports). I own the 50 mm 1.4 Art and it is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I own a couple of other Sigma lenses too and I am quite happy with them. My biggest regret unfortunately is the fact that I NEVER got the performance I expected from my (could be stellar) Sigma 70-200 2.8 EX DG HSM OS. This lens is supposed to be my workhorse and the biggest contributor to my daily bread and butter. But images shot at 200 mm 2.8 are so disheartening. It totally lacks sharpness and annoyingly soft in the corners. Have tried every trick in the book I could, including a calibration at Sigma servicing but I availed no better result. And after trying the Nikkor 70-200 2.8 VR I just wish now that I should never have made the purchase in the first place. 😦

    I have been a Sigma user for long (since the film days) and still use my wonderful Sigma 24-70 2.8 EX DG Macro and love it! But I am so disappointed with the performance of the Sigma 70-200 2.8 EX DG HSM OS.

    Therefore, my appeal to you Sir, would be to provide us users of this lens, with a fix which could enable the Sigma 70-200 2.8 EX DG HSM OS lens to take sharp pics at 200mm 2.8 and have great corner sharpness as Nikkor lenses. I would not like to give away on my current lens right now, it has given me some terrific photographs, so I am hopeful about a fix.

    Mr Kazuto Yamaki, I do not know if you would ever be reading my message, but if you do sir, do keep my request in your mind.

    Thank you Mr Kazuto.

    Thank you Sigma!

  2. I can not help but feel it is ironic that the portrait photo was shot with the most advanced digital camera yet developed by the most prolific and innovative camera manufacturer on the planet right now. A unique corporate culture and strong family values are great things, but they are not enough in themselves to design successful products or to bring them to market. Sigma made some very dubious decisions around the development of their Quattro series IMHO. If Sigma do not hurry up and move the Foveon sensor forward, then an innovative and resource-rich company such as Sony will soon make sure it is resigned to history.

    • Peter Bowyer says:

      I had the “pleasure” of handling a Quattro for the first time on Saturday, along with Merrill. The Merrill reminded me of my Fuji S2 from 2003 – a pleasure to use in so many ways, yet needing to fight the technology to take photos (rear screen, focusing etc). The Quattro… what kind of human did they test that body shape on? With pointy corners sticking into soft bits of my hand, it’s a lesson in how not to do ergonomics.

    • Well, I wasn’t going to buy a camera for one image…

      • Ha! And I’m glad to hear you didn’t! 😉

        My intention was not to question your camera choice, but rather just to illustrate the competition that Sigma is up against if it really wants the Foveon sensor to be a commercial success.

        • Actually, I’ve wanted to on many occasions – because perfectly controlled + limited FLs on a tripod and fewer images actually suits the way I work a lot of the time – but the workflow throws things out of the window, and the moment I need the cameras to be flexible (let’s say while travelling and weight is a restriction) – then I’ve got serious problems because I have to bring a second system again.

  3. An interesting interview. I have been shooting with both a DP2M and DP3M for several years. I recently bought the DP0Q but after several weeks of shooting with the camera I returned it as I felt it had too many fundamental problems. The camera could not handle highlights at all. I was reduced to working with filters to try and balance sky under all conditions. I also felt the oof areas were very poor. And I felt noise even at low iso was too intrusive (bear in mind I am aware from working with the DP2M/3M about noise levels). These are not ‘newb’ issues, I am a seasoned Sigma camera user – these are real concerns with the product. If the CEO does indeed read social media then he must know that what many users want is an interchangeable CSC camera with a Foveon (not Quattro) sensor. I he does not believe me then I suggest he reads the discussions at the respected GetDPI forum where there are many loyal Sigma camera owners. What disappoints me most is the opportunity costs involved in developing the Quattro line which could have been invested in the next generation Foveon line and especially, say, a FF foveon.

  4. Kazuto Yamaki: any chance we’ll see a cinema camera with a Foveon sensor in the near future? The images this sensor produce are so cinematic… It could be a game changer.

  5. Beautiful portrait of Yamaki-san, Ming! I enjoyed your write-up as well.

    I am one of many that wish Sigma well, though I wish they’d get their act together sooner rather than later as it relates to quality. Especially frustrated because this past week – I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time (which I can ill afford) to test their 35mm Art. The first one I purchased had very erratic AF despite monkeying with the dock, so I had to send that back. The replacement that arrived is so soft it’s not funny. Having had to mess with SPP in the past, as well as perform unnatural actions like taking the SD14 apart to fix a grounding problem that was clearly a design fault and now this lens issue does not inspire high confidence. Sending the second 35 away this week and fingers crossed that the third works out. I had intended to look at the 50 Art too, but not sure I want to go through the trouble now.

    Hopefully someone from Sigma is reading this blog and comments. Please get your QC act together, Yamaki-san.

  6. Konstantinos says:

    Thank you very much Peter, you are very kind 🙂

  7. Hi Ming.
    Lovely account, thanks for this.
    Just a small correction:
    The current line of DP cameras can be though of as either the 3rd or 5th generation, not sure why you said 4th? There were 2 small upgrades to the original DP in the DPs and DPx, then the significantly different Merrils and Quattros.
    BTW, are you planning to do a workshop in NZ this year or next?
    Thanks!

  8. Kudos to Yamaki-san! I have definitely changed my perception of the company over the last few years: lots of respect now for the courage and capability to compete at the very high end of optics against Zeiss and like.

    Now I own two Sigma lenses (10-20/4-5.6 and 17-50/2.8) for my Nikon D7000, not only because they are more affordable but also delivering excellent results.

    I truly hope Sigma will make their ART lenses, especially the 35/1.4, for Sony FE mount selling under $1000. I do believe there is a sizable gap between Sony’s 35/2.8 and 35/1.4, where lots of enthusiasts like me would be happy to see a Sigma ART lens.

    I’m also quite intrigued by the innovative Foveon based digital cameras. My photo savvy friend recently got a DP2M during his Japan trip, and raves about it. A worthy praise comes from someone who shoots medium format and meticulously fine tune 50M plus photos.

  9. Kecap Manis says:

    My perception of Sigma has change dramatically in the last few years. Long gone are the also-ran zooms of second class optic. Now I marvel at how Sigma came to formulate their lens concept, development progression, and their design and manufacturing skills. Nothing less than a quantum leap.

  10. Dear Ming ,
    I like this portrait , What do you used Camera & Lenses ?
    Thank you
    Pramual

  11. Jorge Balarin says:

    I love Sigma’s Art line. It brings very good or first quality at affordable prices.

  12. Peter Bowyer says:

    Thank you Ming and Mr Yamaki for this excellent interview. Sigma has the ethos of a company I’d love to work with: focused on innovation and quality products, rather than marketing/sales driven.

    I would really like to see them focus on exploring haptics and the user experience of cameras-I think there Foveon sensor is interesting and theoretically compelling (I have not had the chance to try one), but where their approach could really stand apart is in making a camera that is a pleasure to use.

    Picking up on another comment above, a simple start could be to have interchangeable grips for small or large hands. With everyone’s hands is being different sizes, you can’t suit everyone with one body. Or how about a sugru-material grip that moulds itself exactly to your fingers?

    That’s just one very simple example: I’d love to see them experiment along the Leica T and Q body style roots. Experience (both tactile and the mental experience of menus) counts for so much and I feel the major camera manufacturers have forgotten this.

  13. Anyone have any experience with the 18-35 Art for APS-C? I’ve heard it’s quite good and I’m wondering if it’s worth the investment. I have the old 17-50 2.8 and while it’s decent it’s construction isn’t the best. Feels quite cheap, to be honest.

    • Hello Ørjan, I had that lens on my Nikon D5200 (I’ve switched to the D750). It is BY FAR the best lens you can get for an APSC sensor. You’ll be simply amazed… One trick thought is that you will need some time and effort to perfectly calibrate your specific copy of the lens with your own body using the Sigma dock (get also a focusing kit like the Spyder). Afterwards it’s razor sharp!

      You can have a look in my website for samples using this lens ( actually all photos except 2 of them are taken with the Sigma):
      http://www.f4focus.squarespace.com

  14. John Brady says:

    What a fascinating interview and a great portrait. The sense of an engineer-led (rather than marketing-led) company comes through strongly. A human CEO – it will never catch on!

    Sadly Sigma don’t have much for m4/3 (and the economics probably don’t justify the investment) but if I ever jump to full-frame then their Art lenses look very interesting (for someone who can’t afford or justify Zeiss).

    They clearly innovate in terms of sensor technology but I wonder if the biggest opportunity is to innovate on the user interface and haptics? Hopefully a partnership is in the offing!

    • They’re a company I’d definitely like to work with because the culture is so different to anything else I’ve encountered. Fingers crossed!

      • Gerner Christensen says:

        Oh, I think that would be a very fruitful collaboration indeed. Can’t know why, but let’s call it an intuitive vision of bringing super intelligences together on some special tasks could lead to breakthrough new innovations. To broaden the shooting envelope of future Foveon cameras sounds almost like music in my ears.
        Fingers crossed for whatever positive outcome 🙂

  15. Please take a moment to relieve my cultural ignorance. You describe Sigma as a family owned business, one which maintains the tradition of lifetime employment. Is that obligation felt by employees as well? No moving about in the job market? If so, does this produce an artisan guild-like devotion to craft? Or does it limit one’s development, since upward movement might well depend on an older generation dying off to make room?

  16. Good job to both Ming and Yakuto! I also love your feedback regarding a FF Foveon to him which is just what I’m asking for. I am a fan of the Foveon technology but I just couldn’t get warm to the updated sensors of the Merrills and Quattros. I mean, I would love to see the image quality of an FF with none of the Quattro style technology and none of the poor noise performance of the Merrills.

  17. Raulsalza says:

    I have been dreaming about DP Quattros or Merrills with interchagable lenses instead of the fixed ones, or SD1 (quattro or merril) with Canon or Nikon mounts, or even better interchangeble mount cameras. Hope that my dream come true,
    One last wish 100mm macro art (super sharp, the best that ever existed in the near future)

    I own Sd1 Merrill, 70mm macro, 18-35mm (SA and EF) 24-105mm art ef

    Dear Mr. Yamasaki san thanks for making dreams that no one coud imagined before

  18. Great read, Ming! After reading this, I admire & respect Kazuto Yamaki. I recently purchased a DP3 Merrill because I just ‘had to see’ what all the Foveon fuss was about. After several week of use, I have to tell you, I’m a true believer! Quite an exciting technology- so exciting that the slower SPP/Adobe workflow doesn’t really bother me. Combined with a slightly modified version of your PS Workflow II- the results are outstanding!!!! Looking forward to what Sigma releases in the future!!!

  19. Thank you for writing this, it was a very interesting read. I like the concept of the DP series cameras, too bad that they have ergonomic issues in use (battery consumption, display, speed) and post-processing is tricky. It all seems to come back to software; I would love to have a peek at the software and hardware to see what it could do, though unfortunately Japanese companies don’t seem to want to hire outsiders to take care of these things 🙂

    Incidentally, I frequently use the Sigma 35/1.4 Art. It’s not as exciting to me as Zeiss lenses, but performance is high, very predictable and even (something that can’t be said for many contemporary Nikkors…) and it’s great for events and kids. I used to have a 30/2.8 for a crop sensor Sony, tremendous value, but not up to the level of fancier lenses in terms of image quality. In any case, Sigma’s products are well worth a look these days.

  20. Thanks for a very nice interview with an impressive man. I love the DP2s and DP2M: when the light is right for low ISO and you nail the exposure, the Merrill files are breathtaking, and for me nothing else comes close. I was dismayed by the decision to change the Merrill sensor, and by Sigma’s terrible marketing of the Quattro. The DP2 and DP Merrills were showcased on special websites with some really excellent sample images and photoessays. The Quattro’s official samples have come slowly and are often very poor in quality – enough to deter me. If Sigma advertises the Quattro with official sample images that are easily outdone in IQ by the DP2s, let alone the Merrills, then something is wrong. I hear the software changes have made the Quattro IQ much better, but you would not know this from the Sigma website galleries.
    For the next generation I hope Sigma upgrade the Merrill sensor and body, adding a simple OVF or EVF and putting most effort into getting the workflow sorted out. I wish Sigma well.

  21. A remarkable portrait Ming.

    Dear Kazuto Yamaki,

    Thankyou for your dedication to photography and your spirit of innovation. Is Sigma going to continue to produce and optimize the DPM sensor? If flesh tones were improved this earlier Foveon would be the industry leader. You might consider developing an Adobe or Phase One plugin to help your customers and take Foveon mainstream.

    Have you considered making Foveon available for cinema? Sigma could sell them at a premium in the pro market if BlackMagic or Red offered them in their cameras. That would protect your own still camera lines and expand Sigma’s influence without the new engineering costs of going full-frame. The existing DPM sensor would be big enough and I imagine it could output 4K or more through software.

    After all, Foveon is the digital upgrade to Technicolor. As you have 3 channels of colour information, a Foveon sensor would be ideal for post-production.

    Down the road, we would all like to see a full-frame or even wider 70mm sensor in a Sigma camera. Most of your customers buy your cameras for landscape work, so a bigger camera is not a problem.

    Good luck with Sigma and thanks for your fine and affordable Art lenses.

  22. Joakim Danielson says:

    The Swedish site objektivtest.se has just published a list of the ten sharpest lenses in the world (prime lenses and for FF) and Sigma had 4 lenses on that list which is quite impressive so congratulations Sigma!

    The guys that has put together this list are very experienced and have over 25 years of experience testing and reviewing lenses plus they measure their own MTF values. The list can be found at http://www.objektivtest.se/nyheter/tio-av-varldens-skarpaste-objektiv/, although the article is in Swedish the list should be easy tu understand.

  23. Homo_erectus says:

    This article was a wonderful surprise! I have a great deal of respect for Sigma and for Yamaki-san himself. Whenever there is a Sigma product that meets the need I am trying to fill I chose it because I want to support the creative and passionate people that work there.

    My first Sigma lens was a used K mount 105mm Macro lens. I bought it about three years ago basically because it was the one I could afford. I made a great impression on me and I found myself shooting with it whenever I could make it work just because I love the way it renders blues, greens and browns ie the most common colors in the natural world.

    These days when I need, or want, a new lens I start my research at sigmas website. Their line up is clearly in transition from “good” to “great” but even many of the older lenses are excellent and the prices are very good. Now, all but two of my lenses are Sigma’s and I own a DP3M as well.

    I’m eagerly awaiting an Art 24-70 F/2.8 and will sell a kidney for an Art 70-200 F/2.8 if there’s ever one available. I would also very much like to see Sigma make a lens like Nikons 135mm F/2 DC lens.

    Thanks for the great interview Ming. I love your site and read it all the time. I especially love the philosophy/opinion and technique content as literally no one else on the internet writes on those subjects.

  24. As I admire the phenomenal portrait you made of Mr Yamaki-san, it occurred to me that you could not have gotten a better result with any other camera, not even MF. Well done sir.

  25. jasonwang99 says:

    I have to admit really falling in love with the DP2 and DP3 Merrills I picked up used. Although they have their issues, I find the AF to be accurate if not fast, metering to be pretty good, and the micro-contrast and sharpness most addicting. The battery life isn’t good but I’m ok about staying on top of battery life and I don’t do a ton of volume anyways. And with such relatively small volume, SPP processing doesn’t bother me too much either. I just batch process into TIFFs and the go to Lightroom from there. (The Retina iMac I’m on doesn’t hurt either.)

    To the poster who spoke about Velvia 50, I think that’s a good comparison. You can’t just shoot into half lit scenes hand held. And I somewhat enjoy the shot discipline that is required for good results. Of course… if there was a DPX that ended up with PDAF, clean high ISO, and all the other bells and whistles, that would be great too. But I do appreciate the simplicity of the interface and the lack of bells and whistles to some degree as well.

    Thanks for the interesting read, Ming. Looking forward to more like it.

  26. Very interesting article. Sigma are always going to be nothing if not interesting. Just to come at it from a slightly different angle: did you do it through an interpreter, does Yamaki-san speak English, or do you have ninja-like Japanese skills?

  27. Hello Yamaki-San, if you are watching this space, I have an earnest request for you. Please introduce a film version of the DP0 Quattro fixed lens camera, at least as special edition. I know it’ll be half-frame film camera and might need an OVF. But it”ll attain cult status.

  28. Dear Yamaki-san, looking forward for more lenses and better lenses in the DN series for mirror less cameras. A dp0 like 21mm lens for FE mount will be a fantastic addition. Also, a compact foveon 28-80 zoom lens camera with 1″ sensor please.

  29. Thank you, Ming, for this great post. There is no doubt that Mr. Yamaki understands the validity of user feedback. He also very much understands accessibility. A truly powerful combination. This man is “on”, like 2015 on. Sigma has to be praised for pursuing the difficult Foveon path.. And using the DP2 Quattro, one understands the call.

    This may sound patronizing (and that it so NOT the intent), but why don’t you get yourself a Quattro, preferably the DP2 Q for its 45mm equivalent focal lenght. I know you love to see through 28mm glasses, but there is also quite a bit of philosophy in the 45mm realm. There just is. It is not going to break the budget. I got mine for $600 on Ebay in pristine condition. I have boatloads of equipment (and presumably thimbles of talent), yet this quirky camera gets me all challenged in a myriad of ways, in the best of ways (I wear 40mm glasses, if anything). There is something truly special in the rendering. I mean, I come from the film era (like in deep film), and the DP2 Q just kinds of re-kindles the flame. As for the limitations, well, what can I say? I used Velvia 50 for an eternity (with its generous 5 stops, pushing it) and I bitched when Fuji changed the stuff for Velvia 100F… which had, marvels of marvels, two-thirds stop more DR. 50 meant your pesky friend “tripod” like always, yet I bitched because we were loosing something. You get the drift. Anyway the jpgs of properly (emphasis on properly) exposed Quattro captures are nothing short of W-O-W. , for the ones short on time (ah, the precious stuff…).

    But, much more importantly, when photographic fatigue sets in, and it does for every photog, the Quattros are the perfect antidote. Because in the end, and I really mean this, photography is a journey and on this journey, you want valid companions. The Quattros fit that bill, quirks and all.

    And one more thing (re. S. Jobs), how about a trip to Penang, this mythical place not that far from KL. I so much wish I were that close.

    All the best, man.

    • I’d get the DP3 if I was to get one; it also has uses for stitching and I prefer the perspective. I already reviewed the DP2 here. However: the problem still remains workflow. It took me probably six times longer to process the images for that review than normal. This is completely impractical…

      As for Penang – I only go if I have a reason to. I just don’t have the time, even less so now that I have a family AND still have to maintain existing commitments and this site. Time is money and all that.

      • Martin Fritter says:

        I have a Dp2 an a Dp3. The Dp3 is magic. Selling the Dp2. The only thing I find completely bothersome about either camera is focus by wire. Well, more than bothersome: hateful. A reasonably priced FF with one of these sensors that takes Art lenses: that would be tempting.

        Also, and this is implied in the interview summary, Sigma lenses for e-mount priced 20-30% less than the comparable Zeiss ones.

  30. an 85 1.4 art for Nikon would be fantastic, as you brought up in the interview.
    if it’s up to the standards/value of my 35mm art i’d buy one in a second. most of the otus performance (plus autofocus and at 1/3rd or 1/4th the price) for head only portraits? yes please.
    thanks for the coverage Ming.

  31. Fascinating read, thanks for posting, and thanks to Yamaki-san too. Personally as a user of the Sigma Art lenses on MFT, I just want to say thank you for making such a cheap but good quality series of lenses. If I ever went with a Nikon / Canon / Sony camera I’d almost certainly pick up Sigma lenses to go with it too. It’s nice to have a middle ground between “really good but eye-wateringly expensive” (Zeiss Otus…) and consumer zooms.
    I would love to see Sigma make lenses for Samsung NX cameras, but I very much doubt the demand is there at present.

  32. Great article! If I ever meet Mr Yamaki, I will humbly request a 500mm 5.6 prime. Enough with the long zooms!

  33. Wish Sigma made their inexpensive but excellent mirrorless ART lens in a fuji mount. I have all three for m4/s, and the 30 for sony. I would get both the 30 and 60 for my X-M1 tomorrow if made available.

  34. This certainly makes me want to purchase a Sigma product (not that I don’t already lust over some of their newer lens offerings).

    As always, great write-up, Ming. Thanks for taking the time to share Yamaki-san’s story with us.

  35. Kinda surprised to see this here. Great read, thank you. Whenever I read interviews with Mr. Yamaki, it always seems like he gives out good vibes. He always seems so honest and straightforward, without spewing all this corporate BS all the time.

    And I must say that I really, really like what Sigma had been doing in recent years. I genuinely think that Sigma is the biggest argument for even considering a DSLR. I would really love to see them make lenses dedicated for Micro 4/3 (well, judging by patents, they do, as OEM for Olympus), not just putting MFT mount on APS-C designs (those are actually nice as well). But I guess they will go for Sony FE, which will make me jealous of Sony users for the first time 🙂

    And I love my DP2 Merrill and what it did to my photography. I never in my dreams thought I would enjoy shooting with this camera. Now, if only they would improve the software side.

    • He really does. And it makes me want to support him just so that the industry can see how it should be done.

      Bring Art to other mounts. That would be a good start…

  36. Great to read this. Thanks for the interview.
    I own all 3 Merrills and i can’t think of any camera that can match those files.
    I hope they go back to Merrills in their next iteration, with an EVF of course. I don’t like Quattro. Its less Foveon. Adulterated.

  37. Michiel953 says:

    I haven’t read the article (yet), but great portrait of the interviewee. Apart from the light, I particularly like the “staggering” of the wood panel behind his head. Hopefully intentional!

  38. Tom Morgan says:

    Thanks for a great post Ming. I’m sure that Kazuto Yamaki was honoured to meet the great MT as well. Little question Ming, I own the dp2 Merrill and wonder if you have a recommendation for an external viewfinder. Thanks.

  39. What a fantastic picture of the ceo, you should very proud of this picture.Hope he hangs this in his office.

  40. Neat, thank you Ming. I rented a dp2 (I was wrong above, I checked out which lens each uses) in May for an outdoor car show and I was delighted with the details and colors of the .jpgs. Looking to torture myself, I played with the dp2 RAWs in SPP too, and I wasn’t nearly as put off as its reputation led me to believe. Apparently there was a significant software update just before that rental and I wasn’t nearly as bothered by the software as the horror stories led me to believe.

    To be sure, my C1 I was using for my Sony was pretty pokey too (it also received a speed-boosting upgrade recently), so maybe I had slow expectations.

    Still, it might be worth another shot if you have some time and a Sigma RAW hanging around.

    Every time my wife sees the photos she wonders about getting one until I remind her of its tiny useful window. However, this is from a woman who’s irritated every time I bring up buying any other camera gear (that’s much less than the $1000 for a dp!).

    • C1 is slow for me too. I apply local corrections to every image. Only ACR/PS is fast enough, and I’m familiar enough with the software and wouldn’t get much additional IQ out of C1. SPP is still nowhere close to ACR. Even if they had a plugin that would do a DNG conversion things would be workable…

  41. Ming, any idea why there is no zoom lens Quattro or even a MFT foveon interchangeable lens camera?

    • My guess is that zooms would be compromising the lens-sensor optimisation and the whole pursuit of optimum image quality. MFT – if I were running the business, I’d want people to buy my lenses, so opening up the mount would be the last thing I’d do.

  42. That’s a fantastic portrait!

    I’m eagerly looking forward for Quattro’s successor and I’ll be seriously thinking of buying it if it has EVF.

  43. Mr. Yamaki unfortunately left the last button done up on the right arm of his rather exquisite and well tailored suit.

  44. I think the most impressive about yamaki is with the same 24 hours, he can run a company, an engineering team and still be social-media savvy.

    • He’s also replying my emails usually almost in real time, which is even scarier. I think I’ve finally found somebody who sleeps even less than I do! 🙂

  45. so, when you will try to review sigma lenses, please give them a chance Ming.

  46. Just love this statement you made after the interview”Sigma is a company run with both passion and focus. ”
    Of course they have focus! They are building lenses……ha! ha! Couldn’t resist the pun!

  47. Gerner Christensen says:

    I really loved to read this. Thank you both for working this interview out. Much appreciated.

    My love for Sigma will never rust. Again and again my ART lenses have delivered outstanding transparency and my DP Merrill’s continue to deliver the best micro contrast still out there, it is amazing.

    Thank you Team Sigma for the good work!

  48. Great interview, thank you for sharing! I’m a happy user of DP2Merill even it deserve the whole critique. Also Sigma 35/1.4 in Nikon incarnation is my most used lens. I second the idea that an Art version of 85/1.4 is not the most important lens we need. At least in the Nikon camp many people “pray” for
    a Sigma 135/2 and even 200/2 Art. Another thing… a compact 18mm fixed lens, f/3.5 or f4 but delivering across the frame is a necessity for thousands of full frame camera owneres when travelling, hiking or landscaping, when they do not want / can / own the big guys like 14-24; 16-35 etc.

  49. Thanks MIng and Yamaki-san, for a very insightful interview (and a great corporate portrait)!

    No question here, just a complement…I LOVE my Sigma 60mm f/2.8 DN prime lens for my Micro Four Thirds system! It is a stellar, small optic which is incredibly flattering for portraiture (e.g., color rendition, bokeh, etc.). Keep up the great work and I look forward to seeing Sigma’s continued evolution and innovation!

    Count me as a satisfied customer hungry for more…and that goes for both Sigma’s and Ming’s products, services, and integrity! I also own a few of Ming’s Teaching Videos and they are worth every penny.

  50. Well, firstly thanks to Ming and Yamaki-san for this post.

    I’d like to ask to Sigma if they have a roadmap for long tele lenses and mirrorless mounts, specifically E-mount is my interest. As a recent convert from Nikon to Sony, the only Nikkor lens I still use is a 300mm ƒ/4. Well, I’d like to complete the switch in 2016 🙂 Sony’s strategy in this segment is totally obscure, as they only offer long tele lenses in the A-mount. But I understand that their priority has been to roll out lenses in shorter focals to build up the system. So, my interest is in third parties such as Sigma and Tamron, which make excellent lenses for their price: their 150-600mm. But no (F)E-mount versions. Tamron at least offers an A-mount option, which Sigma announced, then cancelled. So, I’d say that even Sigma’s strategy about (F)E-mount is obscure.

    I’m aware that long teles have a special relationship with AF and this is an area where mirrorless still have to fill the gap with DSLR. But it looks like they are filling that gap pretty fast – reasoning at prosumer level it’s likely that in 2016 I could see a more than satisfactory AF performance for my needs. In any case, long lenses are pretty useful for landscape too, and I could enjoy them right now.

    PS. While my primary need is in the long focals, I’d appreciate also shorter focals 🙂 especially in the APS-C segment, given that Sony has recently declared that they’re going to focus on FF. The first lens I bought for my new system was the Sigma AF 30mm F2.8 DN A, which is excellent value.

  51. Andrew Hills says:

    Enjoyed this article very much and i should imagine an interview like that must be quite inspiring, i hope Sigma have a bright future. I use the DPM one,two and three and when the stars align i get a real thrill looking at the image it and myself can produce.Some of the problems are my fault, using the camera as a point and shoot,its so tempting, its diminutive size and weight fools you into thinking that you can use it this way, i should know better! But when I’m using it the correct way there is still so much blame that can be aimed at these cameras, Power,hear that scream in the hills its me as i change the battery AGAIN if i get 50 shots I’m lucky as i have the rubbish LCD on a lot as its nearly impossible to see what you are taking pictures of in strong light i now use a black scarf over my head view camera style to get round this but i tend not do this in the city and spoil shots because of this. SPP, its bad but running version 5.5.3 with Mavericks on a mid 2010 MacPro i thankfully don’t have as many problems as others seem to report but I’m only picking a few select images make minor adjustments and export it to PS. It was so close to being a landscape photographers dream, foliage and natural scenes are so lovely from these cameras the final push at Sigma could have created a Legendary Photographic tool that would have been as pleasurable to use as the images it can create.

    • Andrew Hills says:

      An edit really, In PS CC Camera Raw can be accessed easily within PS and although i export as a TIFF a lot of adjustments can still be made, high lights that show in SPP as burned out can often be pulled back thankfully as the DR is not the best either.

  52. I think there are too many holes in Sigma’s camera technology, such as AF, processor, etc. They could benefit greatly by partnering with another camera maker, like Olympus, by supplying Foveon sensor to make a M43 mount camera with modern AF and processing. As it stands, Sigma has more holes than Leica before Leica Q. Leica’s successful collaboration with Panasonic enabled it to leap-jump several iterations to get to Leica Q. Sigma can certainly borrow a page from Leica’s playbook.
    Nice portrait and an interesting interview that’s more about the man, though nothing Yamaki-san said here is new.

  53. Nice portrait! Taken with the A7Rii 😉 What watch were he wearing? Nothing beats Foveon; I have two DP2M models, files are the best there is…

  54. Actually Yamaki-san is the only CEO in the photography industry I’ really like to know, even if just to shake his hand with respect for his passion and dedication.
    A mirrorless FF Sigma body with interchangeable lenses and maybe a faster AF would be a dream came true.
    I own dp2 and dp3 Quattros and its files at base iso have a richness I can’t find on other cameras.
    Also, an EVF would be great to have: is it really impossible to add an optional EVF? Why? Because of circuitry, or energy consuption?
    The screen of Quattros has an average resolution,compared to other recent cameras, and manual focusing can be a little bit frustrating at wider apertures (a portrait at f2.8 with the dp3, for example).
    Anyway, I fell in love, despite the quirks you already mentioned, with the Quattros, and even more with the passion, bravery and philosophy of Sigma Family.

    Thank you.

    • You might get the chance – he travels quite a lot and makes a point to meet the community when he does.

      “A mirrorless FF Sigma body with interchangeable lenses and maybe a faster AF would be a dream came true.”
      I did ask 🙂

      I also got the impression the next generation will see an EVF; he felt the Quattros should probably have had it too.

    • My thoughts exactly, I have much respect for Yamaki-san and it would be an absolute honor even just to shake his hand and thank him for what he does.

      Its not just Yamaki-san though, I have much respect for Sigma as a whole and I have always had a great response from the UK and at times other Sigma divisions and as for the camera’s I love them… the first time I opened a Dp3 Merrill file it was like someone had just opened my eyes and even to this day it brings a big smile to my face.

      I would also love a full-frame Foveon body, even if it was still based on the dsrl to use the awesome sigma lens but a Mirrorless version that came with new leaf shutter lens would just be icing on the cake!.

      Thanks for this interview Ming Thein, it was a joy to read and I have yet to thank you as you are one of the reasons I bought my first Merrill.

  55. Very nice article. Confirms my impression on Sigma and Yamaki-san.

    Apart from video I’m only using Sigma cameras. Mainly the dp cameras. I have all the Quattro and Merrill cameras and also the original dp line. Still using the dp2 today when I want a small camera in my jacket pocket. Each generation has its strengths so they get used for different things.

    Currently, I’m using the Quattro lineup and I cannot agree with you. The grip is the most comfortable of any camera I have used. Perhaps it is dependent on the hand size, not sure, but I used the first couple of hours to get used to the grip and then it fell into place how to hold it. It happened when I didn’t focus on the grip, but taking pictures. My point is that for some it might not fit (just like the other camera makers cameras does not fit everybody), but it is not a universal truth that the grip is bad which I get from your review and this article. Would appreciate this distinction. Kudos to Sigma for thinking out of the box!

    So why use something of a niche camera when you have cameras that short of making you pancakes, does promise to do everything else on autopilot? Well, because of that. I embrase the simplicity, image quality *and* the limitations.
    Less is more. The times I have had to use my wife’s E-M5 I get no pleasure from it. It feels like snapping photos with you cell phone. The calmnes is gone and it just stresses me. Photography is my Zen in a otherwise hectic week.

    Hope to see more from Sigma. I do think that the software must be included in their next project and get more attention. If it is possible to utilise GPU processing powers to speed up processing, then that would be great.

    • Well, you’re the only lucky person for whom it works – I would love to know how. I can’t concentrate on shooting if there are sharp things digging into my palm. But thankfully there is always Sugru!

      • Not the only one 🙂

      • I also love the grip/design of the Quattro and feel it to be a joy to use, I even like using the Quatroo over my Pentax k3 which has a great grip and ergonomics.

        I could be down to Hand size? I’ve not got the biggest hands in the world but it could also be because I hold it much differently than my Dslr?

        I tend to put my pinky running under the camera, two fingers on the grip under the strap lug with the third finger on the grip over the strap lug so that it sits between my fingers, I then sit my thumb over both control dials and rest it on the shutter button.
        It might seem odd but, it works for me and I can still change shutter/aperture easy, the left side of the camera has the corner of it resting into the palm of my hand just under my thumb while my thumb and finger wrap around the lens.

  56. fazalmajid says:

    One big reason why they keep developing the Foveon concept is that their A1 QA system is built around it, and a big reason why they were able to leapfrog Nikon and Canon in lens quality with their Art series. They need the volume, piddling as it may be, to keep the sensor viable.
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/05/06/exclusive-sigmas-a1-lens-testing-system-revealed

  57. Ming,

    Wonderful interview and an amazing portrait of Yamaki-san. Well done! I would like to see slower versions of the 24 and 50mm Art lenses. Still the excellent Image quality however with the 50mm at f1.8 or f2 for less weight. Also the 24mm at f2 or f2.8 for less weight. – Eric

    • Thanks Eric – yes, slow and high quality seems to be missing in a lot of lineups. I also spoke to Zeiss about this and they actually said they didn’t see a market…

      • Frank Murphy says:

        I’d like to think that high-quality, smaller max-aperture lenses would be in demand if they were also small. Imagine a Sony FE-mount 50mm f/2 smaller than the 35mm f/2.8.

        But it’s easier to market a number: bigger is better!

  58. ollithomson says:

    Thanks for the interview. One quick question for Sigma: When I was using the Sony NEX-7 I used the Sigma 19 and 30mm lenses almost exclusively. My biggest regret when I switched to Fuji is that I no longer could. So, I would like to know what Sigma’s current thinking is on the possibility of producing lenses for Fuji X-Mount, whether that be versions of the existing 19/30/60 lineup or new lenses? If the latter, I’ll happily supply a list of the ones I would like to see:) I’m sure this question has been asked many times, but no harm in asking again.

    olli

  59. Very encouraging…I hope your impression that Mr. Yamaki genuinely listens with an open mind is true. It will be the key to their success. The SPP issue is fixable. I believe they should start from scratch with state of the art GPU based image processing algorithms and well researched UI design. It will be a large but straightforward task requiring much work. However success does not depend on a new discoveries but rather on the expert execution of existing technologies and methods. Thus the costs and risks are fairly well known. Creating a new FF camera is a different matter however. My ideal camera would be a minimalist no-video/wifi/gps/picture style FF Foveon-type sensor optimized for IQ with Fuji X style manual controls and ergonomics to comfortable support up to a 70-200 lens. I wish them the best. Thank you sharing your insights with us.

    • I’m pretty sure he was – he recognises the value of customer feedback and was taking notes the whole time during the user meeting/dinner. Changes aren’t so fast to propagate especially if they require significant recoding or hardware modifications, but let us hope they do happen…at very least, somebody in a position to do something is listening! 🙂

  60. An excellent interview that maintained IP yet really shared the spirit of the head of this company. As corny as it sounds, having a culture that fosters innovation and healthy competition to one-up the engineers in the next cube is not easy to create, but is a great place to work and will yield far better products than the carefully metered incremental improvements doled out via focus group testing. Thanks to you both and I’m sure there will be more Sigma products in my future.

  61. I just loved this, Ming. Thanks for getting in there, up close and personal. I was just out shooting on the D750 with the Sigma Art 24 tonight. What an excellent product. The pathos of innovation and quality! Bravo!!

  62. Harvey Steeves says:

    skip the 85/1.4 ART, give me a 17-35/f4 tilt shift ART.

    • This! I imagine that it would be pretty difficult, but an Art quality wide shift-tilt would be very interesting to a great many architecture, landscape and product photographers, and throwing in independent shift/tilt alignment Canon-style would place it as an obvious step up from the decent-but-high-sample-variation and cheap feeling controls of the Nikon 24mm PCE. I understand that Sigma Art lenses already use pretty large imaging circles..

      85 1.4 Art sounds nice, but honestly with there already being good and cheap options out there, are people really going to flood over to this presumably big and heavy beast to get a 10-15% performance boost over, say, a Nikon 85 1.8? At the time the 35 and 50 Arts came out the competition at a similar or cheaper price point was a good distance behind, and a similar story with the 24mm Art. I hear a few vocal photographers calling our for a 135 f2 as well, but again its not like the Nikon/Canon offerings are bad, albeit somewhat dated, and the Zeiss is simply spectacular.

    • That would be pretty awesome, but I can’t see a big market unfortunately…

  63. Had the DP2 Merril had even a simple old-school optical finder in it (think of any of the old ƒ2.8 fixed standard lens film cameras), and I would still own that camera: perfect focal length, and I can put up with SPP for the IQ. But no optical nor EVF means that I sold both DP2Ms I owned. I very much appreciate Yamaki-san giving you his time for this interview; I hope a DP2M-like camera (not Quattro style) but with an EVF makes a comeback; I will buy one.

  64. Ming, thanks very much for conducting this interview and writing it up. Yamaki-san and Sigma do sound like they are in it for the right reasons!

    Now a question for Yamaki-san: are you aware of the Kalpanika X3F open-source tool that converts X3F RAW files into DNGs that can then be used in the Adobe workflow? Here’s a link: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56320800 There is a link in that post to the Github repository with the source code as well.

    They currently have to reverse engineer a number of things, like the color conversion matrix, but the initial results are very promising. I’m sure some technical information to help them with things they have to guess at would make this into a really useful tool. Having a viable alternative to SPP can only help Sigma grow the Foveon market. I for one would love to use it with my DP3 Merrill.

    Thanks for your consideration and time in conducting the interview!

  65. If they would only “fix” SPP I might give them one more chance. It’s great that, within their windows, the Foveon cameras are supremely capable, but if the software that processes the RAW files is useless then there is a huge weak link in the chain. SPP, at least on Mac, is slooooow and severely unstable. Again, fix that, prioritize that, and they just may have me. Spend the next two, three, four sprints rebuilding SPP to a new, modern baseline of software performance that would then showcase the full capabilities of the cameras and sensors.

    • I have better idea: have Sigma work with an existing high-end raw developer software company so that Foveon images can really sing, and let SPP quietly fade away. Sigma has demonstrated the highest quality hardware and engineering skills; but software is not part of that set (nor need it be, IMHO).

      • Better idea is to work with the open source crowd. They are much more responsive than a company.

        • clintkapp says:

          Brian @ Iridient Digital has an extensive list of Sigma RAW support on his site and it’s what I use to convert the X-Trans RAF’s from my X-T1’s. This article certainly creates a lot of excitement about the future of Sigma and strikes a similar chord with what I see happening over at Fujifilm as well. Both horses of a different breed… Thanks, Ming!

    • Agreed – and I brought that up to Yamaki-san to be told he’s doubled the headcount on the software side, so they are listening 🙂

    • Refer to poster Andrew Hills. For now he has the right formula for post processing. More specifically Andrew has learned that creating good images, working within the strengths of the cameras, little needs to be done in SPP. Relying on SPP to save poorly exposed images, I have found, is mostly a waste of time. We have become conditioned to rely on post processing as a crutch. Bringing well exposed images into post processing is the ticket. It is as much true in digital as it is with film.

    • When was the last time you used the software? I rented a dp1 in May and apparently there was a significant software update just before that rental and I wasn’t nearly as bothered by the software as the horror stories led me to believe.

      To be sure, my C1 I was using for my Sony was pretty pokey too (it also received a speed-boosting upgrade recently), so maybe I had slow expectations.

      Still, it might be worth another shot if you have some time and a Sigma RAW hanging around.

    • SPP 6.3.0 is not terrible to use, at least on my Mac Mini quad-Core i7 with OS X Yosemite. It crashes a lot less, though it still occasionally crashes, but it’s a rare thing these days compared to 5.x. And it’s sped up enough that I actually try out some adjustments in SPP: I used to just export all of my RAW files as TIFFs with a saved setting (sharpening -1, daylight WB), but now I’m playing a bit with the fill light, color wheel and other things just to tweak the files in their native data format and latitude before exporting.

      B&W processing is also best done in SPP I find, especially if you like to use just the blue channel data for luminosity. Noise reduction is best done inside SPP as well, but I generally leave that at its default settings.

      And just to show off a bit, this is one of my favorite pictures I’ve taken with the DP3M, and for me, there is no other system that renders clouds the way the Merrill Foveon does. A D810 with an Otus-quality lens gets close, but it’s not the same.

      //embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js

Trackbacks

  1. […] the interview I conducted with him last year, Sigma CEO Kazuto Yamaki invited me to ‘visit home’, as it were, should I ever be in […]

  2. […] Ein Mod-ein Wort… und um sachlich/objektiv zu bleiben An exclusive interview with Kazuto Yamaki, CEO, Sigma https://blog.mingthein.com/2015/08/27…aki-ceo-sigma/ […]

  3. […] may also find the interview interesting, which Ming Thein – arguably the best known photo blogger aside from Steve Huff, Ken […]

  4. […] ist zudem das Interview, welches Ming Thein – der wohl neben Steve Huff, Ken Rockwell und Thom Hogan bekannteste […]

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